Satanic cult leader

[Andybev01]

Bada-BING!

[iHaunt]

Bada-BING!

Have you watched "The Sopranos" tv series before? I really liked it, but I'm not into mafia business!

[Pumpkin_Man]

Actualy, many of Germany's citizens were drawn to Hitler long before the Nazies came to power. Germany was in the worst depression of it's history. The German people were humiliated before the world at the loss of World War 1. The poverty they suffered was the worst in all of Europe, and the German currency was litteraly not even worth the paper it was printed on. The German people were as "lost" as anyone ever could be under those conditions. Hitler promised the German people that he would aboloish the humiliating Treaty of Versails. He promised to bring back Germany's pride and prosperity, and about 41% of the German people bought into the Rhetoric Hitler spewed from his Fascist "Pulpit," and from the "Bible" of National Socialism a.k.a. Mein Kampf. The other 59% of the population split between the other two candidates, so it was very clear that the majority of the German people were forced at gunpoint, as you say, BUT, there was undoubetedly a very cult like following amongst those who voted and supported Hitler and the Nazies. Even at the end of the war, when Germany's defeat was iminent, Hitler and his henchmen all opted to commit suicide rather then face the humiliation of another defeat. It was a lot like a cult's members committing suicide.

iHaunt, MacPhantom is correct, unless I, too have been misinformed. I think Charles Manson is still alive. I would hate to think that I missed something as big as the death of Charles Manson some how, but I don't remember hearing any news about him dieing. So I think he's still alive, well, preaching his "gospel" of "Helter Skelter," and singing about "feeding the world with his garbage can."

Mike

[Murfreesboro]

Interesting comparisons between a religious and a political cult. Hitler was certainly a highly charismatic leader who commanded the loyalty of some very able men. And my husband, who is a walking encyclopedia of the European theater of WWII, has often said that if Hitler had died before a certain year (1937? 1938?), he would be remembered today as one of the greatest leaders Germany ever had.

One of my favorite books is Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich. I read it decades ago and reread it this summer. (Speer was Hitler's Minister of Armaments.) The relationship between them, as described by Speer, is quite fascinating. At the time he wrote it (during and after his imprisonment), Speer said he had come to hate Hitler. But even hatred is a passionate emotion. I agree with Mike that it is very difficult, if not impossible, for us to imagine the psychological condition of people in Germany when Hitler came to power. Speer speaks of his relationship with Hitler as a Faustian one--"you don't recognize the devil when he is putting his hand on your shoulder."

[Pumpkin_Man]

I certainly do believe that Hitler was influenced very heavily by the devil, and some Bible Scholars, including Catholic Bible Scholars, believe that he was the fore runner of the great Antichrist who's supposed to come to power some time in the future.

I read part of "Inside the 3rd Reich" a few years back, but I borrowed it from a library, and I had to return it before I had a chance to finish.

Mike

[MacPhantom]

I'm with you on the notion that Hitler's inner sanctum shared a cult mentality, but when you got to the Antichrist bit I think you lost me again.

[Rising Dead Man]

If I lived back then I would have thought he was the antichrist.

[Murfreesboro]

There is a group at my church that has been doing a Weds. night Bible study of Revelation, and I have dropped in on it a few times. Our minister believes, based on Scripture, that the ultimate "anti-Christ" will be someone from within the Christian tradition (because it says somewhere that he will be "one of us"). Hitler was nominally a Catholic, but he wasn't really a Christian believer, and even expressed a preference for Islam (according to Speer), because he admired its martial qualities. There were also some Christian ministers who died in concentration camps because they opposed the Hitler regime. Nazism was at its core anti-Christian. If Hitler had triumphed, there were no plans to build churches in the future Reich.

Our minister believes that the "spirit of anti-Christ" has been present throughout the ages and that many people have been "anti-Christs" in lower-case letters, not the final one. He also believes that it is impossible to know when the end-times will happen. There is no way to predict that, although several sects have tried. It is enough to know that every generation contends with the spirit of the anti-Christ.

Sorry, don't mean to turn this into a religious discussion. I just thought the points were kinda interesting.

[Rising Dead Man]

contends with the spirit of the anti christ?

[Murfreesboro]

contends with the spirit of the anti christ?

Sorry, I guess I didn't realize that language maybe sounded abstruse. I think my minister just meant that, over the centuries, a number of different leaders have been antagonistic to Christianity, so Christians in each generation have to resist people like that. He seems to think the "anti-Christ" is more a mind-set than any single person. And of course, the book of Revelation does predict some kind of final "show-down." But he thinks it is futile to try to guess when that will be.

I respect this man's opinions and enjoy discussing the Bible with him, but I don't always agree with everything he says. For instance, he thinks the Pope is most likely to be the ultimate anti-Christ, because the Pope is an acknowledged leader of Christianity. (Not necessarily the current Pope, of course, but some Pope, someday). To me, that seems like a carry-over from the days when Martin Luther was fighting the Pope. (This is a Lutheran minister, my husband's denomination, not the one I was raised in.) Sometimes I think the Lutherans are still fixated on the Reformation.

I didn't mean to get carried away with religious discussion. I guess folks' references to "anti-Christ" just got me started.

[Rising Dead Man]

naw i like discussing it

i think the antichrist is supposed to be one guy. thats my intrepertation. some people thought it was obama lol

[MacPhantom]

Personally, I enjoy the religious aspects of the discussion, and in a topic titled "Satanic cult leader", it would be hard to discuss much of anything without SOME tangential discussion of religion!

I wonder, and maybe you know this, Murfreesboro, what the Bible says specifically about the anti-christ, and what sort of time frame was prophesied for his arrival on earth. I seem to remember discussing in another thread (end of the world?) the frequency with which people think they personally are living in the "end times", and yet here we are, over two thousand years after the supposed birth of Jesus, living in a world not even remotely like the one in which the Bible was set to paper. And I hope I don't have to say this, but I'm not seeking to be confrontational... I'm just curious as to what sort of scenario would exist in which people would say "Hey, you know that whole anti-christ biz? Maybe they got that part wrong." Does the lack of belief in an anti-christ preclude belief in Christian salvation?

[Pumpkin_Man]

MacPhantom, I did not say that Hitler ws the antichrist. I metioned that some Christian Bible scholars believe him to be the FOR RUNNER of the great Anti Christ. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. I think it's definately a very distinct possibility that he was the for runner of the great Anti Christ. His regeim was very simular to what the great Anti Christ's regiom is going to be like. Hitler was charismatic. So will the Anti Christ be. Hitler was loved by millions. Will will the Anti Christ. Hitler brought Germany to the brink of ruin and plunged the world into a horible war. Hitler persecuted millions of innocent people. The great Anti Christ will de likewise only on a global scale. And I PERSONALy believe that there's no posible way for something like the 3rd Reich to happen unless the devil was diectly involved in some way.

Murfrees, yo weren't out of line at all. When ever there's a discussion about the devil, there's bound to be a post, or two, or three, or a bunch, about Christianity and religion in general.

If Hitler had his way, there would undoubetedly have been a major persecution of Christians. Hitler, from what I understood, viewed Jesus Christ as the illegitimate son of a Jewish woman and a Roman soldier. Many Christians, Catholic and Protestant died because they refused to go along with what Hitler was doing.

As for when the end times is actualy going to happen, you are dead right about that. There really is no way to determine the time frame. The Book of Mathew is quoted as saying that "...only the Father knows the day and the hour. Not the angels, or even the son, but only the Father......"

Mike

[Murfreesboro]

I'm glad you could cite chapter and verse, Mike. I knew Jesus made that statement somewhere, but was too lazy to look it up. That's the passage our minister refers to when he says it is impossible to predict when the Apocalypse will happen. That's not to say he doesn't believe it will happen. On the contrary, because the Bible says it will, he does believe it will come. He just says it is impossible to know when.

Mac, most of the end-times talk in the Bible comes from the book of Revelation, although I believe the prophet Daniel in the Old Testament also discusses it, and Jesus quotes Daniel on that topic a few times. Some of the more modern (I mean, 19th-century forward) sects that have emphasized the end-times have tried to make sense out of some reference to a thousand-year reign of Jesus on earth (Millennialism), but our minister believes that all the numbers in the book of Revelation are symbolic. For instance, somewhere in Revelation it also mentions that 144,000 souls will be saved. Our minister says that number is symbolic of completion (12 X 12), since the number twelve was significant to the ancient Jews. There were 12 tribes of Israel, and Jesus chose 12 disciples. I happen to agree with him in this part of his interpretation, but there are Christian sects who literally believe that only 144,000 people will be saved.

You are right that many generations of people have believed they were living in the end-times. There was a group expecting the return of Jesus in the year 1000 because of the reference to "a thousand years" in Revelation. (Our end-times anxiety in the year 2000 took the amusing form of fear over the Y2K bug, I think). And there are other examples. Sometimes I think many people don't want to believe the world will go on after they are dead. It's easier, somehow, to think, "Apres-moi, le deluge."

OTOH, there are lots of things happening right now that seem to be setting the stage. A number of things have been posited as signs of the end-times, based on various parts of Revelation. The restoration of the nation of Israel is one of them. The preaching of the Gospel in all nations of the earth is another. A general falling-away from Christian belief, and a rise in paganism, is a third. And of course, the final battle is supposed to take place in the Middle East. When I was a child, that seemed so unlikely to me. Back then, with the Cold War in full swing, all I could imagine was a huge war between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. But now? I have a hard time imagining a world war anyplace else.

There is also a passage in Revelation that says, when Jesus returns, all people together shall see him in the air. I've always wondered about that part of it. However, in the summer of 2008, when I was watching the live broadcast of the Olympics from China on T.V., it occurred to me that "all people" on earth were watching the Olympics "in the air." Not that God would be bound to our technology, but just saying, some of the things the Bible talks about that seem totally impossible, are suddenly not so implausible.

[Pumpkin_Man]

Many Bible Scholars are saying that we have more reason to believe that we are living in the end times then any other generation before us, but that doesn't mean that it's going to happen in out life times. I also remember the Cold War, and all the fear of Communism and it's rise. I have an older brother who faught in Vietnam.

Predicting the end fo the world, is something that has been done over and over again, with not one prediction so far comming true. (it's funny you should mention Y2K) But here is what I can come up with off the top of my head in terms of end of the world predictions.

In 1960 the world was supposed to come to an end, and during the Cuban Missile Crises, we were all huddled in our basement waiting for the bombs to come. I was only a baby at the time so I don't have any actual memory of it.

Then, according to waht was the talk of my high school at the time, the world was supposed to end in 1980.

California was supposed to fall intot he cean in 1988.

A nuclear war was supposed to break out in 1997.

The Y2K Bug was supposed to render our whold civilization obsolete at the stroke of midnight on New Years Day of 2000

And the latest prediction, is the world is supposed to end on December 21, 2012 according to the Mayan Calender, and several other sources.

I do believe in the Bible, and that the end times are going to happen. I also believe that there's a good possibility that I may live to see it, but I don't presume to know it. As for end of the world predictions, I tend to disbelieve them, because so many of them have come and gone it isn't even funny. I actualy did think that the world was going to end in 1980 when I was in high school. So did a lot of people. 1980 came and went, and then came al those other predictions.

So I'll stick with what Jesus said in the Gospel of Mathew. Nobody knows when the world is going to end. Nobody knows.

Mike