Should I Go?

[MauEvig]

Kolchak I was joking when I said the ghosts were hiding.

But I still find myself disappointed when nothing comes up like that.

For me it's more that I want to believe ghosts and the afterlife are real; but that nagging skepticism creeps up on me as well. So I agree with you on that point; my mind tends to go to war with itself over the whole thing; but I think it's quite possible ghosts are real. There's just too many accounts of these things happening to simply dismiss it.

And hey, not everyone who works minimum wage jobs are undereducated. I have two associates degrees and I work as a cashier. It's degrading work; I'm not going to lie: It sucks and I can't stand it. But jobs are scarce and it's either that or nothing until I'm done with college and get my Bachelor's degree. Although working for the public does chip away at my sanity each time I walk behind that counter, for every second I stand there it chips away. I may consider looking for a Substitute teaching position anyway if one comes up locally just to get experience and get away from this job; but considering I was able to get Sundays off I'm just going to stick it out for now unless something really bad happens there where I get really fed up.

You are right, there are a lot of frauds and hoaxes. But I wouldn't dismiss every claim with regard to ghosts or the paranormal.

[NeverMore]

Kolchak I was joking when I said the ghosts were hiding.

Heck! I would hide from Kolchak. He's scary. You ever see the life of a cop? Here's a typical day. (Some NSFW language)

[MauEvig]

But Kolchak is a fellow haunter and I do my best to be a good law abiding citizen. I don't think I have anything to be afraid of.

[Kolchak]

I do my best not to chase people anymore. I'm old and don't have the patience to write the ten thousand word report you're required to do these days if you even put a slight scratch in your car. But the hardest part is not going postal and killing all the rookie retards that are passing for young officers these days. They have no idea what they're doing and yet we give them a badge, a gun and a car that can go 140 miles an hour. Every day I feel like choking three or four of them because of some stupid thing that a semi trained chimpanzee wouldn't be stupid enough to do. AARRRGGHH!!!!


I wasn't throwing stones at anybody for their education or lack there of. But, this field is rife with people who are either mentally unstable or are trying to con gullible people into believing they have the answer when in fact they don't have a clue. But because there is no legitimate and accredited educational and scientific interest in these areas, people must be held accountable when they pretend and lie about who they are and what they purport to be their qualifications.

Paying some guy $70.00 to get a diploma from the Northern California University of Conscience and Light, does not ready someone to be an authority or expert in paranormal activity. There are websites that you can go to and pay them a sum of money and they'll send you a diploma and a voltmeter so you to can start your own paranormal investigations. How they can tell you with a straight face that a spirit is such and such and such, is beyond me? The truth is nobody can prove there is anything after life. I'm not saying there isn't anything, but there is no scientific proof that there is anything there. Until or if that day should come, fine, but until that day, I will look at people who call themselves experts on UFOs, Bigfoot, Ghosts, Paranormal or Cryptozoology with an extremely critical eye.

[MauEvig]

Well you have a lot more patience than I do then. Dealing with the public every day really tries my patience, especially dealing with customers who are pushy, demanding, or just plain rude. I don't think I could handle being on the police force; and kudos to anyone who can. The only branch of cops I was ever even interested in were the ones who did animal rescues and busted people for animal cruelty; but that's mostly because of my big heart for animals. Regardless, I don't blame you for wanting to tear someone a new one; I always figured there was a lot of extensive training involved in being on the force; and I imagine one has to pass some sort of psychological profile.

Well you are correct that this line of work is typically where most undereducated minds are. Sometimes I think it's tough for me to work with people who haven't studied the same stuff I have; but I put up with it anyway. No unfortunately there isn't; and most scientists like Stephen Hawking for example are going to say there's no reason to believe there's an afterlife. Maybe there isn't; but if I think in regard to there being no afterlife it's going to not only make me depressed but the very idea that the soul/spirit is a fictional thing makes me question what morals are and where they really come from. So I'm simply trying not to think about it, and simply assume that we don't know one way or the other. If I tell myself "this is it" over and over again, it's going to make myself fall into severe depression; so I'm just trying not to focus on that. If each day I assume a listless; soulless existence where morals are merely a fictional construct in order to ensure our own survival; I'm only going to start wondering why I should even bother to continue existing if that's the end all anyway. At that point I'd only be "following the rules" not because of right and wrong, but because I don't want to get into trouble; I'd be living in fear instead of loving life and loving humanity; not to mention loving animals, nature and all the other things I'm passionate about. My mind simply cannot separate the idea of morals from the soul/spirit that continues to exist after death. A meaningless existence to me also means a moral-less existence.

But you are right; no one can prove it one way or the other. So I'm trying to just find meaning in my life and keep going forward. I continue to do good things and not expect anything in return.

[Murfreesboro]

Mau, the spiritual condition you are describing in your second paragraph is exactly what the Biblical book of Ecclesiastes is all about. "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. . . . ."

I think Stephen Hawking's name gets invoked a lot because he is apparently the best in his field at the moment, like Einstein or Newton in their day. But that doesn't make him all-knowing or even 100% right about everything. Ultimately, he is just a human being, like the rest of us.

I don't think we are ever going to be able to prove the afterlife or the existence of a soul scientifically, according to scientific method, with its necessity for replicating experiments and having repeatedly observable data, etc. I think we are absolutely meant to take it on faith. But when I think about it, I realize that everything in the world that matters comes down to faith. For example, if the people who founded our nation could have known, without a question, that they were going to be successful, where would their heroism have been? You can prove your character only by acting without knowing what will happen next--in other words, by acting on faith. And think about it--you can get a money-back guarantee on a car, or a refrigerator, or even a house, but you can't get a money-back guarantee on a marriage, or a career path, or a child. The stuff that really matters in your life is always going to be a matter of faith. Having faith in God, the soul, the afterlife, is just an extension of the faith you already live by in your life.

[Kolchak]

I also didn't intend to confuse religion with paranormal interests. I see them as quite separate issues. People of faith can and often do have problems with the paranormal. I personally don't, and the reason I don't is because I am not convinced the paranormal is real. But more importantly I am convinced 99% of those who work in the paranormal field are liars and frauds. From a legal point of view, I see these people as one step away from being in handcuffs and arrested for fraud and larceny.

[Kolchak]

Please don't allow issues like these to cause depression. There is no reason to fixate on why? Instead look at what is, and what will be. The future is not set, and to fixate and worry only keeps you from living your life and enjoying the world around you. You have too much time in front of you, and too many good things to look forward to, to worry about the little things. You're young, and have people in your life who love and care about you, and you love and care about them. At the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Murph is also write about Hawkings. He is a smart guy, but he isn't a god and doesn't have all the answers.
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[MauEvig]

Well; I don't think I could be satisfied with faith alone but it's hard for me to believe this is it. I'm literally stuck in the middle of skeptical and open minded, I stand on a very thin line between what to believe and what not to believe. But Murf you're definitely right about Hawking not being right about everything. Atheists tend to point to him as the know all and end all, along with Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan and other revered Atheist and Scientists and such. I'm pretty sure there are Scientists out there who are religious or don't believe that "this is it." Hawking was just an example; there are a lot of other ones out there who say the same thing.

Kolchak, you are right about a lot of things; and I don't think there's going to ever be a right answer. I could get into the philosophical implications of what it would really mean if "this is it" but I think the important thing is learning to accept, and be at peace with not knowing. No one likes unpredictability (well, some people do but that's besides the point) people prefer to plan ahead, which is why we watch the weather channel or request days off from work to spend time with family, but the very nature of life itself is unpredictable. It's random, right down to Natural Selection and Evolution. Even my Science Professor has stated that it's random. You roll the dice and that's what you get. Yet somehow, our brains are hardwired to have structure, stability, and predictability. All human beings have a desire for meaning and purpose. To think otherwise really goes against the grain. My emotional side of me really gets into it with my logical side; but maybe that's how humans are supposed to be. Life is just one big contradiction. The only certainties in life are birth, death, the golden rule which is universal in almost every religious belief system, and irony. I say irony because at least for me, I tend to be the target of Murphy's law. I still have beliefs, but I can't prove that those beliefs are real or not. Around and around it goes; and at some point I just need to tell myself to chill out because I'm in the same boat as everyone else. We just don't know. No one does. Accepting it is the real challenge.

I agree that these frauds aught to be thrown in Prison for sure; especially since a lot of them like to toy with people's emotions all to make a quick buck. Granted, there are some people in faith who are frauds as well (cults and the such) but one should not assume they're all like that. I'm sure there are 1% of them who are sincere.

Granted I had no problem at all with the Lexington tour. It was fun, but I think it was more for entertainment purposes than anything. Plus you learn a bit of local history, and the tour guide dresses up like they're from the 1800's. For me, thinking "it's a ghost" isn't just about proving there's an afterlife and taking comfort in it, for me it's more fun to think it's a ghost. I like stepping out of the ordinary way of life, the listless back and forth that is reality. Sometimes something disrupting the norm makes things interesting. Of course; I hardly ever have a "normal" day at work anyway. Something odd always happens.

So I guess "odd" is actually "normal."

Also to comment on how people of faith do have problems with the paranormal, you are correct. When I was in Pentecostal Christianity; I believed ghosts were actually demons trying to fool us. There was no reason to believe ghosts were actually real; because everyone who died in my belief system either went to Heaven or Hell. If you look at some of my older posts from my old account "DemonSlayerMau" that was back when I was into Christianity more. I sort of went from being faithful, to losing faith, to being faithful again, and now I'm just sort of unsure what to believe. I think it's better to have my own beliefs anyway. Now that I'm no longer a Christian, I have to question whether any of it is real, any kind of spiritual experience. That includes feeling the presense of God and the Holy Spirit; and if God is real, how do I know "God" is the only God? What if the Pagan Gods are real? There's way too many what-ifs to think about. I think in reality, I was always unsure deep down. Of course I wasn't when I was little, but back then that was all I knew. It wasn't until I got older and discussed ideas with others that I began to question and doubt things. There's a bigger story behind that of course though.

[Murfreesboro]

I remember the actor Christopher Reeve, after his catastrophic accident, saying that "Either there is meaning in life, in which case it is our responsibility to try to find that meaning, or there is no meaning, in which case it is our responsibility to try to construct a meaning." I thought that was an honest and succinct way to put our situation here. As the poet Alexander Pope said, we live "on the isthmus of a middle state."

You are right that all the world religions have some version of the Golden Rule. However, I think I am correct that (all) (most) of them, other than Christianity, express that rule negatively--don't do anything to anyone else that you wouldn't want done to yourself. Jesus said, "Do unto others." It was a positive statement. That's one of the things about Christianity I like--it is really very positive, very upbeat. "Fear not" is the most frequent commandment in the Bible.

[MauEvig]

I respect your opinion Murf; but I'm not 100% sure if Christianity is entirely positive in it's message. Perhaps for the most part in this modern day and age it preaches the "good news" but when I was growing up they tended to promote these little "plays" if you will. They were called "The Glory and the Fire" and "Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames" which basically were meant to scare people into converting to Christianity out of fear of hell. As a Christian, it made me scared that I didn't have true salvation. Having got "saved" at the age of 5, was I truly competent enough to have made that decision? Plus with my Grandma being obsessed with the end times and the Rapture, there hardly seemed to be much room for talking about God's love and the Positive Message by Jesus Christ. A lot of it seemed fear based, and of course I already mentioned the event that lead me away from Christianity in the first place.

But now I have a much bigger fear than Hell. Many Atheists will take comfort in knowing they won't be going to Hell, but the idea of becoming nothing, not feeling anything, not acknowledging anything, is far more scary than any eternal torment ever could be. Feeling pain and torment for eternity is preferable to ceasing to exist, because at least I'd know I can still feel something. Sure, Atheists will argue that you don't have to feel pain, but in that scenario you also don't feel love, happiness or anything else. While watching a deconversion story by an Atheist, while his story made sense, he mentioned that his life was more fulfilling after becoming an atheist. But he didn't mention how that was possible. Then I mentioned it in the comments and about the whole ceasing to exist thing. Then someone commented bringing up the subject of hell not existing. I'm not worried about hell, at least not so much anymore anyway.

The thing is, I feel like I'm in a bit of a lose-lose situation. If Christianity was right, how would I know that I'm good enough for Heaven? If the Atheists are right, then it doesn't matter what we do in this life: The end result is always the same. Death, ceasing to exist, and that's it. At least believing in Reincarnation, I have a chance of there being a life beyond this one, and continuing to exist, while not being punished for eternity. I'm not saying Christianity is bad; it works for a lot of people. For one of my best friends growing up, it's given him hope. He feels it makes him a good person. I think he's already a good person deep down, but if he chooses to think it's because of God then so be it.

Sounds like that quote makes a lot of sense. Somehow, we strive to find meaning in our lives. I find it illogical somehow that finding meaning has somehow lead to us trying to find ways to survive, and about being curious about the world around us. I feel like my mind starts to implode when I really think about it. Right now I am trying to find meaning by continuing my college course work and striving to be a teacher. I'm also working to accomplish my other goals as well. At most, I don't want to be remembered as a cashier and grocery store clerk. I don't mind mentioning that the customer service field was how I got my start in the working world. But that is not the title I want to have when it's time for me to leave this world behind. (Granted, my very first job was at McDonalds, but that was over 10 years ago and I didn't run the cash register.)

[Murfreesboro]

Mau, you former denomination really does appear to have preached "hellfire and damnation" as a way to scare people into accepting Christianity. I suppose that has always been one thread of the Christian story, but most churches don't do that nowadays. The one I attend regularly (my husband's Missouri Synod Lutheran Church) is very conservative theologically, but it emphasizes the grace of God. That was the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation, kicked off by Martin Luther--salvation by faith alone, by grace alone. You are not supposed to have to worry about whether or not you are "good enough" to get to heaven. Nobody is good enough. God gives it as a gift. All you have to do is accept it. Then, the idea is that you'll be so happy about your own salvation that you will naturally do good works here, just to share your happiness, but not as a way to work your way into heaven. (This was against the backdrop of the Catholic church's selling "indulgences" to help pay for St. Peter's in Rome, the indulgences being a way to buy time out of Purgatory so you would get to heaven faster.)

I do think atheists can be quite ethical people. I suppose if you think human society is all there is, you will want to make it as good for yourself and those around you as you can. But it doesn't sound like atheism is a philosophy that is going to bring you much comfort.

I know you are still searching. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am only trying to make the choices a little clearer, maybe.

[MauEvig]

You're right about one thing for sure; indeed Atheists can be good and ethical people but I would never feel completely satisfied accepting their "doctrine" that "this is it." Deep down I would have a hunger and desire for a meaning and a purpose; as well as for spirituality of some kind.

But that doesn't mean they aren't right either. Trying to find some kind of meaning and purpose when in reality there isn't any; seems pointless. I mentioned on an ex-Christians group I was on that I had my own beliefs, but they pointed out that it wasn't much different than simply trying to find my own meaning, that I was just making things up as I go.

The only beliefs I'm certain of is that it's beneficial to show kindness to our fellow man, and do our best to help humanity. I believe we should help ourselves first because it would be difficult to help others if we aren't in a situation where we could help ourselves. I also believe in showing kindness and humane treatment of animals, and showing respect for the Earth as well as for life.

But the why...remains unanswered. I know doing the above is a good thing; I know being moral is good. I know things like murder, theft, rape and other atrocities are bad because they hurt people. But why they're bad is up in the air. I don't want to be a good person just because "God said so." I don't want to be a good person because it'll help me survive. I want to be a good person because deep down I know it's the right thing to do, even if there's no promise of a reward.

So I just try to be a good person. Sure there's a part of me that isn't such a good person, but we've all had our moments I'm sure. I admit I have a pretty nasty temper, but I try to keep it in check. That nasty temper I have I think stems from my anxiety, depression and insecurities.

My church wasn't entirely bad, I actually attended a couple different churches. But this one church really emphasized that we must accept Jesus's sacrifice or go to Hell. There was also a lot of paranoia about certain things being demonic. That we had to be careful about what was spiritual, or what was a trick by the devil. I always liked Harry Potter for example, but all the Christians kept saying how demonic it was. It's just a kid's story though and I enjoyed it. I couldn't even joke around about having a "split personality" with my Grandmother. "Oh that means you're demon possessed" she said. Yet my personality has always felt like it's been at odds with itself. One time she received news that she'd be getting a new skirting for her trailer. I was happy for her so I said "To the skirting!" because I thought it was an appropriate thing to say. But then she said "No to God!" It was like, every little thing had to be God, and if it wasn't it was the devil. Even things like ghosts were said to be demon spirits tricking us into thinking they were our dead loved ones. I once got into a debate with Jadewik over it; though it was about a ghost that supposedly haunted a local Dollar General store. You can see the discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3553

Wow I re-read it and I realize just how immature I was at that age!

But I have to wonder how different the Bible story would have been, not merely if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit, but owned up to their actions. Adam tried to pin the blame on Eve, and Eve tried to pin the blame on the serpent. But suppose Adam and Eve had said "Yes God, I did disobey you and I sinned against you. I'm sorry, and I accept the punishment that I deserve" instead of what it said happened, would God have reacted differently? Or would the same course of action have taken place? I think pinning our wrong doings on Jesus doesn't sound like it's right either to be honest.

Of course, I'm not entirely sure if I'd be satisfied as a Christian either, because I'd always wonder if it was right, and there are things in the Bible I disagree with. But of course, I know you're not trying to convince me or anything. The pentecostal church wasn't really that bad, it emphasized a lot about spirituality and feeling the holy spirit. It was a good feeling, but then I realized I got the same euphoric feeling when I listed to say, some music from Sonic Adventure. I used to think God spoke to me to comfort me, then I realized it was just my own thoughts.

The alternatives seem to be Pagan and Eastern religions. But I'd be asking myself similar questions.

So I'm not sure if I'll ever have an answer that's satisfying to me. Sometimes I feel like it's between just accepting what the evidence says, trying to find evidence that goes against what most people say is right, or trying to believe and have faith in something that I'm going to be uncertain of. And if there is a God this entire time, hope that he doesn't just toss me in hell because I'm unsure. If there isn't, I guess hope I'm reincarnated, or just feel nothing and blip out as might be the case, or might not be.

What I really hate though, is not knowing. Though in a way, part of me is unsure if I want to know or not. If we do just cease to exist, then I'm not sure I want to know.

[Murfreesboro]

RE Adam & Eve--there's a whole theological theory called "Felix Culpa" (the Fortunate Fall), which I first learned about when I was studying Paradise Lost in college. The idea is that of course God knew Adam and Eve were going to make the choice they made, but His plan was to send Jesus for their salvation. Supposedly they would know greater happiness through the redemption offered by Jesus than they would have known if they'd stayed in Eden forever. You know, the forbidden tree was the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil--the logical argument is that you can't know Good if you don't know Evil.

When you read Dante, there is a passage in one of the sections of Divine Comedy (I guess it's in the beginning of Paradiso, I don't recall now) when Dante & his guide pass by Eden. They cannot reenter it. There is a poignancy about that moment in the poem, how we will never recover that original, lost innocence.

There is that moment in one of the Gospels when the women go to the tomb and see a gardener, an odd detail--why mention seeing a gardener in the area? In the Middle Ages, people argued that that gardener was the risen Christ, that he was the "new Adam," so his first action was gardening.

I get what you are saying about "pinning our wrongdoings on Jesus," how that "doesn't sound like it's right." My own mother, who was raised in the Southern Baptist church, used to say to me that she had never really liked the idea of someone else dying for her sins. Our current minister would say that this is our sinful nature, our (desire) (need) to feel self-reliant about everything. Thinking like that does lead to "works righteousness," the idea that we can or must work our way into Heaven. That's an idea that has recurrent appeal, both in and outside of Christianity. We all want to think that we earn what we get. He would say that works righteousness theology leads to one of two outcomes--either you eventually despair, because you know you can't be good enough, no matter how hard you try; or, you come to believe that you really are good enough, that your poopy doesn't smell, which is self-righteous and self-deceiving. Neither outcome, despair or pride, is a good one.

It is frustrating to be asked to take so much on faith, but if we knew all these answers for sure, we would have no opportunity to prove our character. I believe this not only about religious and spiritual matters, but about everything in life that matters.

You are a doubter, but you are also a seeker, which I think is a wonderful thing. Have you ever tried reading literature by really good writers who have been on religious quests? C. S. Lewis was a famous 20th-century convert to Christianity (converted by his academic colleague Tolkien, actually), who wrote pretty extensively on his experience. I happen to like poetry a lot, so I would recommend Dante as well as T. S. Eliot. Eliot went on a spiritual journey not too different from what you are describing. At least, his early stuff is filled with "Waste Land" type despair, followed by a purgatorial mid-life experience (Ash Wednesday), and ultimately he wrote downright mystical religious poetry during WWII (Four Quartets). Great stuff.

[Murfreesboro]

I meant to respond to what you had said about Harry Potter, too. Back when those novels were first coming out, I had fundamentalist friends who wouldn't permit their children to read them. Needless to say, they were read by everyone in our family, even my husband, who never reads novels--but he read those.

My older boy was confused when he learned some of his friends weren't allowed to read Harry Potter because their parents regarded those novels as anti-Christian. I reassured him. I said, "Look, we find out in the first novel that Harry was saved from Voldemort as an infant because his dying mother cast a love spell on him. Since the name Voldemort means something like Will to Death, or Death-wish, symbolically, love conquers death in the Harry Potter universe. That is the quintessential Christian message."